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Charging a Leyden Jar



  • Not a problem randomind. I come across them when I am looking for something else!

    My sorting into discussion threads might be questionable , but at least I feel they give content to discuss and analyse.
  • This one caught my attention by the similarity in the title.

    My interest was initially the fact that Tribo magnetic effects are never talked about, only Tribo electric effects. The induction of a charge into a Leyden jar when I started the thread was considered to be setting up Statuc " electricity" . Lenz law and eddy currents were theoretically involved but they were ignored or considered miniscule, in order to maintain the electrostatic subject boundary.

    However, Ivor Catt demonstrated with his colleagues that the concept of a static electricity and the concept of a current in a wire were incorrect. A TEM wave propagates between conductors acting like a wave guide or a transmission line. What this energy wave is or was , measured by a step voltage pulse, Ivor does not elaborate on, but rather diminishes the sinusoidal wave propagation theory in which electric charge in motion creates a magnetic charge in impedance, which in collapsing maintains the electric charge in motion and so on.

    This clearly is not the case, as a voltage step clearly propagates between the wires in both directions, (see Ivor Catt WKefield experiment, death of the electric current).

    So this set up, which mimics Tesla's Hairpin circuit , shows how the wave is guided into the capacitor, overcoming impedance by trickling in.

    Waving a magnet next to a Leyden jar will trickle in a charge especially if the TEM step is briefly and regularly allowed to conduct to ground.

  • So I revisited this thread because my understanding of the term electrostatic has changed, and because the video of the electrostatic rod and the copper plates came to mind.
    I certainly was confused by the use of the electrostatic term in my initial research. All those pluses and minuses produced the electrostatic field lines and moved closer to each other or further apart under induction.
    And there you have it! The pluses and minuses move, they are dynamic! But how dynamic?
    Ampère thought they were always dynamic not static at all ! So he wanted to rebrand electrostatics as Electrodynamics!
    Ōrsted had shown him there was one force for electrostatic behaviours and for magnetic behaviours, this force was dynàmic charge (+'s ans -'s ). He proposed dynamic charge as the source of magnetic circulation around a current carrying wire , just as a current carrying loop was attracted to thev North South alignment in his experiments . For him the inductive leap was obvious, for his peers no so!

    But I have deliberately reversed this: it is a magnetic current that is producing electrical behaviours in and around a magnet influencing wire!
    The iron filing pattern around a wire carrying a magnetic current circulating around it similarly arrange around a charged rod placed neat to an oppositely charged rod, an electric dipole arrangement , but the initial dynamic rearrangement is obscured by establishing the rods in a standing wave or static wave dynamic! Thus a single rod going through this dynàmic rearrangement( of pluses and minuses) behaves like a current carrying wire! .
    Ivor Catt has demonstrated that there is no static arrangement of so called charge, but in fact a reciprocating dynamic . A capacitor is best able to demonstrate this dynamic which leaves a wire as guiding in the dynamic into this broader topology .

    But we need to reexamine the concept of a electrostatic field, on which the electric fied is based as well as the Magnetostatic field on which the H field is based in the Poynting vector.
  • The H field is the field intensity within a solenoid. It is very stable along the axis of the solenoid and virtually uniform in cross section apparently . The b field is the external to the H field and that varies in intensity with a maximum equal to the H Field. In the solenoid the electric field is imagined as running in the wire as EMF thus in a solenoid it is virtually orthogonal to the H field. Thus the Poynting vector records these 2 maximums one determined by voltage, the other by the number of turns in the solenoid.
    This combination is used to represent the electromagnetic wave front in advanced theory . .
    Us Ing the Poynting vector Ivor Catt characterise the transverse Electromagnetic Step wa ve that travels alo g the outside of a wire. The site is supposed to have electrons that produce an electrostatic field that emanates from the wife surface, depicted by electric force lines, and a magnetic B or H field that circulates the wire at right angles to these electric lines of force and the direction of flow along the wire.

    Thus the electrostatic field is subsumed into the Elrctromagnetic theory without much question.
    We need to understand the electrostatic phenomenon we have to review Volta's contribution.
    Volta believed the 2 fluids concept provided a valid explanation of then electric spark due to a repulsive and attractive force. However a local professor rubbished his explanation asserting thatbBenjamin Franklins positive charge excess or lack explained everything. No attractivebforcevwasbrequired beyond the lack of charge on one side of the balance book of electrical neutrality.
    However Galvno later proposed 2 fluids in animal electricity combining through conductors to give a spark or to make frog legs jerk..

    Volta was the inventor of many electrostatic charge devices that could produce ndlessly sparks so he was intrigued by this explanation of animal electricity . However after first accepting the explanation he later through research and experimentation he rejected it explaining that it was produced by the instruments used to disect coming into contact with fluid. His explanation was based on the theory that atmospheres round metals were active.mtheyvwere activebinnavwaybthat suggested repulsion and attraction forces were involved
    However his peers chose Galvano's chemical ion explanation, the 2 fluids expressed in a liquid medium . Faraday named them Ions
    Thev2 fluids explanation was entrenched in Europe. Franklins explanation of the balance book difference was called the one fluid explanation.
  • Volta's atmospheres was the nearest to a field theory ancient philosophy could provide. Add to it his life long belief in an attractive force and he had a model very close to the Faraday Maxwell conception.
    But it is Faraday we have to credit with the field line of force depiction that Maxwell made very popular indeed, much to Faradays annoyance!

    Thus the 2 fluids were replaced by neutral particles with field lines emanating from them. The particles were typed + or - . It was much later when Thompson reported his work on the Crookes Cathode ray device that the neutral particle was replaced by a charged particle and the first was the negative particle soon called the electron. The fild lines reminded but now the particle was called the source of these lines, the origin of the field.

    Later when the proton was identified it was given the plus sign to indicate it was the source of the positive field .

    The attractive force exists in this model between the fields, but same fields experience the repulsive force . Franklins one fluid concept enjoyed a revival briefly in terms of the " correct" flow in a conductor.

    The fluids ( liquids and or gas) were envisaged as somehow separate , not commingled so that rubbing could remove some or all of the required fluid to transfer excess to the rubbing material, but no precise law of attraction or repulsion was possible.
    Ampère and Cavendish and Coulomb worked hard to demonstrate such laws existed fir bith Magnetism and electrostatics. Therefore the 2 fluid concept required serious modification. Mathematicins cme up with the potential equation, Faraday interpreted it with his field tubes Maxwell welded the 2 together in the scientific imagination .

    Now Ampère also envisaged charger the fluids as dynamic . The fluids flowed in a circuit creating magnetic rotation around a wire . BiotbSavot simply put line vectors in a box shape around a wire! Later Elrctromagnetic theorists replaced these by electrons rotating on their axis or around the axis of a later Bohr Rutherford atom.

    The Poynting vector now represented the electric field emanating from the electrons and the magnetic intensity emanating from the collective aligned spin of the electrons!

    This model was accepted by the scientific community who were atomists! Those natural philosophers like Ōrsted who followed Kants philosophy were squeezed out, and that included Faraday.
  • I have expllained how the electric field received more attention from investigators because of the fashionable and exciting spark ! Gilbert's magnetic philosophy was still the guiding principle even up to the time of Thompson and Einstein ! But the brash technoological advances diminished its authority and layed the groundwork for new theory . However, the aether was neglected, the world was in turmoil and industry was revolutionising the war machine and then society. Tesla ,Heaviside and Hertz were marginalised from a theoretical point of view while their inventions were cooped into the new regime and given new theoretical explanations! The explanations were inadequate and innovation suffered. The corporate science curtailed free and alternative thinking through the cash Cow of grants and the information in the guild of magnet makers was redacted to reflect the prevailing paradigm !

    In this regard Ed represents the old European aether based Gilbertian understanding of Magnetic behaviour. In that view Electra magnetism is an aspect of magnetism found within a lodestone and isolated to simple bar magnets.
    Thus a magnetic basis is the position most started from .the Electra magnetism was understood to be entrenched within the core of magnetic behaviour of lodestone, not as we are led to think , within a bar magnet.
    The hotshot magnet reflects the positioning of poles in lodestone, often, like sunspots side by side, not axially or dipole- like arranged. Lodestone often had multiple poles!
    Lodestone on analysis was found to have magnetite, a type of iron crystal. The amber crystal a very viscous material exhibited magnetic behaviour and sparking, something rarely seen in lodestone but not occasionally observed .
    Metal and rock are known to spark under certain conditions when impacted by an external force , but spontaneous sparking caused by accumulating rubbing or Tribo magnetic action was not recognised until Volta
  • edited July 2016

    The standard explanation uses the charges first surmised in the electrostatic theories. Prior to this the 2 fluid explanation would have been used. It becomes clear that non dynmic fluids can not even begin to explain the observations! Thus dynamic charges are a necessary foundation and the reason why Ampère sought to change the prevailing opinion!
    Electrodynamics is currently subsumed in the subject electromagnetism.
  • Given that it is necessary to have dynamic force conditions in space, not static ones why do engineers nd mechanics and alchemists prefer an atomic theory ? And in applying an atomic theory why did they remove the inherent perpetual motion of particles?
    The reason maybe religious. For most natural philosophers the causal force or mind had to be identifiable with God.
    Kant's transcendentalism ultimately meant mechanims were not necessarily reliable , and indeed were capricious as anynNorse God, for example!
    However reliable behaviours are observable at least on the human lifetime scale , so this implies a law bound Mechanical explanation of observable phenomena is tractable. Indeed it is so expectable as to convince philosophers that the behaviour of the observables is a reasonable! That is susceptible to human reasoning ..

    Therefore on a human scle particles nd the mysterious fluids on particles are entirely reasonable. The word charge is of course a dynamic label, but it has unreasonably been portrayed as a static topological phenomna. However experts will point out that this is a teaching failure t the primary level. No expert accepts a static explanation of phenomrena.
    So when Tesla was berating the science of Einstein it was because it represented a backward step to primary level teaching on the observable phenomna .

    Replacing particles by rotational fluid dynamics Has actually occurred t the Theoretical level, but it is highly obscured by mathematical or symbolic labels that are incorrectly interpreted.
    The misleading interpretation excludes a trochoidal force as fundamental, rather it places unphysical and in natural " straight" line forces as fundmental. This is mechanically or engineeringly reasonable for linear systems but unreasonable for natural physical systems which are overwhelmingly non linear. For all systems the fundmental,arc segmnt of a circle type is fundamental.
    Ampère along with Ōrsted and Faraday and Tesla advised on this as the fundamental teaching concept.
    Charge thn is a rotational force that is dynàmic and trochoidal . This dynamic itself cycles through expansion and contraction stages. These forces come in opposing pairs such that we can always find a charge that is equal and opposite to any given charge . Thusvwevcannalways engineer a static dynmicalmystem of charges up to relativity! We ca not say what is absolutely static ever. ( in my opinion)
    This fundmental charge is magnetic .
    From this fundmental magnetic charge we can observe a type which we may call electric. It is particularly distinguishable by its high frequency high amplitude discharge behaviour or spark .
  • edited July 2016
    It was Volta who uncovered the Tribo electric scale of materials . His particular interest was animal magnetism or the electric spark that makes animal muscle jerk! In his heart he believed that 2 opposing forces were at work: repulsion and attraction. By this model he could explain most of the observations of his day. However the observation that material that was tribo electrically prepared in the same way always repelled along material lines was not well understood . Thus how did a material attract itself to stick together?
    His research showed how pairs of material were required to demonstrate the attractive force and a third moist substance to enhance the sparking phenomenon!
    Volta realised that it was not the material, iron or amber, but the atmosphere around the material. So the same material could be given a repulsive status or an attractive status, depending on how it was prepared by rubbing. Thus a glass rod could be " charged" one way with some potent fluid and charged the opposite way with an opposing potent luid. The rods would then attract!
    Much of this information was ignored in favour of the chemical explAnation of the electic spark. Tribo electric effects are typically not demonstrated at primary level and by the time they are the electron explanation is well entrenched!
    If Volta uncovered Tribo electrical distinctions in materials, Faraday uncovered the underlying Tribo magnetic distinction.s. Not that Tribo magnetism was not known and used in Gilbert's time , but it was not related to the electric effect it produced until Faraday.
    Students are taught that the changing magnetic field produces current, but not the relationship to the tribonelectric phenomna in all materials.
    Stroking one material with another or Similar material produces different effects. Some are distinguished as electric others as magnetic , but the common process is not even highlighted? So for certain materials rubbing is not sufficient. You may have to strike the material to produce the " charge" effect. As a child i was fascinated by how metals rubbed against stone produced sparks! Later i was told this was due To " friction" , and no other alternative was given!
    Today I class it as a tribomagnetic effect or at least a Tribo electric effect Separated from Volta's pioneering work in uncovering this aspect of material interaction.

  • And so it begins ! Xxx
  • edited October 2017

    When I asked the question. That heads this topic I was substantially naive. I I gained waving a simple bar magnet near a Leyden jar might produce a noticeable magnetic effect on the stored " electric charge".

    When I started asking the question that heads this topic I was substantially naïve. I imagined that waving a simple bar magnet would produce some noticeable magnetic effect upon the stored "electric charge". Of course, that beg the question: what exactly is electric charge?

    Well it's beena long journey to this point, after many investigations, false starts, muddled thoughts, I concluded that the sound basis to understanding these mysterious powers was to except magnetism as the fundamental basis.

    Of course I am not the first nor will I be the last to make this assessment was the most famous probably was Farraday who upon finding out in detail the behaviour of these powers made no pre-conclusion about the origin.

    Still, it was not until the innovation of the nuclear magnetic resonance imaging or an MR are that the simplest answer to my question became scientifically clear. Even though this is a very difficult subject to explain simply the simplest explanation is that a magnetic force or induction affects any material in a way that is observable.

    The obscuring of the relationship between magnetic behaviour and electric behaviour is what hides these connections from view for not only is magnetic behaviour separated from electric behaviour but also electric behaviour is separated from the behaviour of radio, and all of these are then as separate entities combined into one entity called the electromagnetic phenomena. the disciplines even after all this time barely giving ground to the underlying unity.

    And so a child is left to wonder what is the difference between A Van de Graaf generator and a Tesla coil or even the difference between an induction generator and a Windhurst generating machine.

    The mods operandi of these two machine modes obscures the simplicity which connects them: dynamic rotation of the invisible magnetic materiality / spirituality within All things.

  • Why 400 Hz? The materiality responded much more efficiently at higher frequencies, hence silicon chips can run in the gigahz range! But then the transformation between modalities increases the codependent behaviours of heat, radio, phono and photonic emissions and absorptions.
    Materiality becomes charged by frequency ! What that charge is depends on the modality of the frequency as well as the characteristic material.
  • edited October 2017

    The signal is so tiny it is unbeliecpvble. But tiny magnetic signals are believable because of MRI. Furthermore they are conne ted to light.
    We live in a magnetic universe not. Gravitational or space time one if space time I not a dynamic aether like the magnetic aether.,

    The evidence is observable. Magnetic rotations rule..
    Those bubbles of agnetic patterning explode out from a source like a mased event, but settle into filaments . When 2 smoke rings collide they show the same or similar dynamics

  • edited January 14
    Can a weak fluctuating magnetic field charge a Leyden jar or charge up a capacitor or capacitative double layer. ?

    Note how electric, electrostatic effects are induced by weak magnetic interactions over a huge scale, and huge rotational relative velocity,

    Here Donald Scott shows his ignorance of magnetic current. Of course magnetic equipotential surfaces are not Faradays concept nor JJ Thompsons concept of magnetic Faradys tubes. . Magnetic faraday tubes are dynamic and vorticular and filamentary . They reach out into space in a pattern indicated by paramagnetic or diamagnetic induction. . The magnetic faraday tube is a force inducing magnetic coherency in materiality. .

    The iron filings line up along such force inducing tubes. .

    Are they figures of imagination or observable filamentary structures?

    Of course the exact reverse is true? Black is made hire nd white black! An electic current and any electric equipotential line is in fact drawn by a craftsman, and not any more visible than a magnetic one! Scattering light dielectric material in a so called electrostatic fiel will cause the particles to arrange themselves in a similar pattern , but orthogonal to the magnetic faraday tubes. ! You do not have one without the other.

    Which is causative?

    It makes logical and observational sense to set dynamic Faraday magnetic tu rs as causative In the sense of pattern formation through constructive and destructive interference( super position of rotationl dynamics )

    Magnetic reconnection is when one of these dynamic faraday tubes shifts it's double layer configuration. The p,asma in those tu es are at different potentials , so energy is released or gained consequentially with this adjust dnt. The adjustment affects the whole system so energetic events will appear all over the system as it adjusts. .

    So e of these energetic events will be at the lectric frequency mode of magnetic behaviour.
    Are Faraday tu es of a constant size?

    They vary dependent on the materiality , and in fact materiality is ordered by this magnetic characteristic behaviour,

  • The Leyden jar in this case is the earth :a spherical capacitor and inductor circuit. I

    Yes light or rather rotating magnetic dynamics.
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